Loose Change Forum -> Flt 77, Tail# N644aa And Flt 98, Tail# N644aw

Flt 77, Tail# N644aa And Flt 98, Tail# N644aw, The case for a decoy flyover and landing

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Merc

Posted: May 17 2006, 04:42 PM

Veterano

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I have given the flyover/dual plane theory some merit in the last few months. This is promoted by Dick Eastman, who also scrutinizes and disects the witnesses and finds contradictions in the witness's locations.

I do believe the dual plane scenario is difficult though, and it could be a possible mistake or purposefully placed disinfo through witness accounts, or actually reveals that witness accounts could be fabricated in some way from publication to publication. The eyewitnesses who saw a plane 1) over arlington nat'l cemetary, over the gas station or 2) Over Columbia Pike, between 395 and the Navy Annex.

People around are adamant that they saw a "757" or a large airliner. Maybe some people not directly near the Pentagon saw the C-130 and mistook it for Flight 77.

Or there really was a large airliner. And it swooped down and a missile is fired from the generator trailer(conveniently facing in the perfect trajectory of the "plane hole") or bombs went off and this large airliner lands at Reagan Nat'l Airport. Or a small plane hits simultaneously while this large jet swoops by as Dick Eastman suggests. This is based on eyewitness testimony of 'different planes' at different trajectories/angles, going different speeds' and lands safely at Reagan. Or something more staged was happening at the Pentagon and along Rt 27 which is blocked by hills and treelines from several vantage points. Remember we are talking about a jet going a reported 350-530 mph.

Eyewitness accounts, place it over 14th street bridge and Hwy 110. Radio reports place it near George Washington Pkwy, 14th st bridge, 'the end of the runway'. All these locations are on the other side of the impact zone, near the Potomoc, the flightpath for Reagan National Airport. Some of these eyewitness accounts may be fabricated and planted to throw off people who saw a mid sized to large plane, the (A320) flying over the Pentagon and to Reagan. Purely opinion, but opinion based on the fact that these locations are given, and even given in an impossible situation of the plane being able to impact the west wall.

Here is something that was pointed out recently at Letsroll911.org by 'Richochet' while we were all tooling around with BTS research...

American Airlines Flight 77:

Tail#: N644AA
Owner: Wilmington Trust Co.
Disappearing transponder signal location: Ohio, 8:56 am
Impact time: *9:38 am*, Pentagon

America West Flight 0098:

Tail#: N644AW
Owner: Wilmington Trust Co.
Departure: Ohio, 8:40 (Wheels off time)
Arrival: *9:39 am* (Wheels on time), Reagan National Airport (directly on the other side of the Pentagon)

(Posted Image)

Wilmington Trust:

(Posted Image)

(Posted Image)

QUOTE

Posted Thu Jun 19 2003

"One more note, as we had many odd occurrences with lights flickering, movie screens up and down, Annette mentioned that (N)644AW is known to most f/as as the "ghost ship" in America West system."

posted Sun Jun 22 2003

"...hehe,I've been on N644AW many times between PHX-SAN, you're right it is kind of a strange plane."

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/trip_...ad.main/33284/4

Maybe this plane was modified in some way at one point?

N644AW:

(Posted Image)

Now I know. Totally different paint scheme. But here's one account that supports not only the paint scheme, but the model of N644AW. Alan Wallace standing outside his fire station at the Pentagon...

QUOTE

"Firefighter Alan Wallace was standing outside his fire station when he looked across the nearby interstate and saw a white airplane with orange and blue trim heading almost straight at him. It slammed into the building just a couple hundred feet from him. "When I felt the fire, I hit the ground," he said.

"I just happened to look up and see the plane," said Wallace. "It was about 200 yards away, and was coming in low and fast. I told Mark that we needed to get the hell out of there."

Wallace switched on the truck's radio. "Foam 61 to Fort Myer," he said. "We have had a commercial carrier crash into the west side of the Pentagon at the heliport, Washington Boulevard side. The crew is OK. The airplane was a 757 Boeing or a *320 Airbus*."

Or what if it looked like an American Airlines. Blends in with the normal air traffic landing at the airport. And when it landed, they change the color of the plane to America West. Or a large amount of witnesses could be plants or be coerced, or compensated. Here are a few areas that support the multiple plane scenario...

Dick Eastman:

QUOTE

The first reports on Washington D.C. radio spoke of a crash of an airliner on the 14th street bridge. And the first call for fire trucks was to a crash on the northern end of Reagan National Airport.

This indicates that an airliner was seen east of the Pentagon, over the 14th street bridge and over Reagan National. But all the Boeing would have to do after it overflew the Pentagon hidden from most witnesses who saw its approach by first the flash and then the rising mass rising smoke and flame was to put down its wheels, bank to the right (while over the 14th street bridge, and then land at Reagan National which has a runway that ends only one mile southeast of the crash point -- in three seconds the Boeing would be closer to the airport than to the Pentagon, it could blend into Reagan traffic (and of course Reagan Airport, one mile from the Pentagon would be full of DoD and CIA operatives under Rumsfeld and Tenet etc. anyway) where the plane could land and taxi to a hanger and be broken down for parts, or given new numbers and a paint job while the airport was shut down and evidence cleaned up --

Reagan National was the last airport to open, yet it already had the most security of any non-military airport in the US. But most interesting is that, according to multiple mainstream media, 97 foreigners were holding ILLEGAL top secret clearances at both Dulles (where Flight 77 took off) and Reagan National (where it most likely landed)..

The smoke and flames continued the dazzling show, enabling the Boeing to continue on its way to Reagan National with all eyes diverted -- and remember that the overflying Boeing would be closer to Reagan National than to the crash point in about 3 seconds, about the time it would take eyes to adjust to the flashbulb effect of initial missile explosion. The white hot explosion is probably nothing more than 19th-century "flash powder" from before the invention of the flash bulb -- so that people viewing the attack from the west, would not only have the mid-morning sun in their eyes, but the 120 ft. bright flash as well -- yielding significant momentary vision impairment to those who happened to be looking directly at it.

All that remains is the simple determination that the small attacking jet crashed into the Pentagon as the Boeing which all witnesses were watching disappeared into the smoke (and for some the bright 9:00 a.m. sun appearing behind the west wall) and, like a magician exiting the stage in a cloud of smoke, absconded to Reagan National Airport only one mile away. The 757 became just one more plane landing in the national emergency.

QUOTE

As he and Rescue Engine 335 responded toward the Pentagon, there was confusion from the control tower in an alert of a "missing 757." Initially, it was thought to be another crash, possibly at the end of the runway or on nearby George Washington Parkway.

http://www.nfpa.org/itemDetail.asp?categor.../NFPA%20Journal

QUOTE

"Then we heard over the radio that there was a report of an aircraft down and it was near 14th Street Bridge. Al Wallace came over the radio and said they had an airliner hit the Pentagon," Flick said.

http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/6...ws/11746-1.html

QUOTE

Unknown to me, before my radio message, Arlington Dispatch was receiving numerous 911 calls from all around the county. Reports were varied: helicopter crash into east side of the Pentagon, tractor trailer on fire on Washington Blvd., possible airplane crash on or near the 14th Street Bridge. Many of the 911 callers could see smoke, but could not determine its source. Some likely saw a low flying aircraft or heard the impact of the crash. Arlington Dispatch advised all listening stations about some of these reports, but of course, didn’t confirm exact location, etc. In fact, it is quite possible that one of these callers recalling the flight #90 crash into the Potomac River many years ago, was instrumental in causing National Airport to dispatch the first big crash truck. According to the fire fighters from the classroom at Fort Myer, immediately after the communication from Arlington, they heard my radio message. Therefore, apparently my message was
successful in informing my fellow fire fighters of the exact location

http://web.telia.com/~u43109230/flight77/texts/Wallace.txt

Do we have definitive proof that these people were wrong or guessing at it's location?

No.

Specific 911 calls could have been something like this...

Oh my god I saw a plane... it went by the Pentagon, there was an explosion. It might have been a helicopter crash or bombs or something, but I saw this plane..it might have been hit or damaged by the explosion. I followed it, I think it went down by the 14th street bridge or George Washington Pkway...maybe it crashed on the runway.

Isn't this possible?

I mean can we prove that the 14th street bridge accounts are only from people who were "guessing from far away"?

Again, disappearing below treelines, didn't see the explosion...

QUOTE

sstidman on 5/16/06

I was in my 14th story condo in Arlington when I saw the plane descend as it headed up 395 North. It was definitely a plane. It descended below the tree line so I could not see it actually hit the pentagon, but I did see the huge fireball that resulted a matter of seconds after the plane disappeared from my view.

http://www.digg.com/security/The_DOD_to_re...n_on_9_11_today.

QUOTE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Airbus A320-231
N644AW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MSN: 317
Line No.: 0
Registration: N644AW
Operator (Owner): AMERICA WEST AIRLINES (ORIX)
Delivery Date: 1992-09-16
Engine Model: V2500-A1
F/N: 0
SELCAL:
R:
Status:
Previous Registration
[Comments]: F-WWBD, N317RX, N300ML

F-WWBD, Jan. 2003

(Posted Image)

Here's an account regarding the landing gears being deployed:

QUOTE

As he reached his motorcycle, Sepulveda noticed the aircraft wasn't following the normal flight path down the Potomac River for Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport. Instead, it was coming over a distant hotel, headed in the direction of the Pentagon.

"It seemed like the pilot was scrambling to keep control, and I watched as he dropped lower and lower," Sepulveda said. "Then he dropped his landing gear and started coming down even faster and lower.

As it came down, the plane was hitting light poles, the sergeant said. "Then the right wheel hit a light pole and the plane popped into a 45-degree angle. The pilot tried to recover -- go back vertical – but he hit some more light

"He dipped the plane's nose slightly, and then smashed into the building," said Sepulveda.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep2003/n0..._200309303.html

That sounds like a lie or someone was coming in for a landing.

Here's one account, regarding a pull-up:

QUOTE

"Buildings don't eat planes. That plane, it just vanished. There should have been parts on the ground. It should have rained parts on my car. The airplane didn't crash. Where are the parts?" That's the conversation I had with myself on the way to work. It made sense this morning. I swear that it did. (….) I finally cleared my head enough to drive and spent hours getting home. I spent an eternity in my car. I couldn't roll up the windows, the car smelled like the Inferno. Concrete dust coats the outside of the car, turning it a weird color. Eventually I got back here, back to the place I should have stayed in the first place. There seems to be no footage of the crash, only the site. The gash in the building looks so small on TV. The massiveness of the structure lost in the tight shots of the fire. There was a plane. It didn't go over the building. It went into the building. I want them to find it whole, wedged between floors or something. I know that isn't going to happen, but right now I pretend. I want to see footage of the crash. I want to make it make sense. I want to know why there's this gap in my memory, this gap that makes it seem as though the plane simply became invisible and banked up at the very last minute.

--Posted by skarlet at September 11, 2001 08:41 PM
http://punkprincess.com/archives/002150.html

Here's one regarding an impact BEFORE it reaches the wedge:

QUOTE

"Cheryl Hammond was the person who called Harrington and his crew out into the parking lot. "I thought they'd put out an alert or something, " Hammond said. "We saw the big American Airlines plane and started running."

"About two minutes later one of my guys pointed to an American Airlines airplane 20 feet high over Washington Blvd., " Harrington said. "*It seemed like it made impact just before the wedge.* It was like a Hollywood movie or something."

That's why people even had it diving at an 'unrecoverable' angle...here are the different news publications that had conflicting trajectory, flight path, angle of attack, and impact location, pointing to two planes, a different plane and a different flight path, or a fabricated accounts given to news outlets:

Washington Post:

(Posted Image)

(Posted Image)

(Posted Image)

(Posted Image)

(Posted Image)

(Images cut due to image restrictions)

Us News:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mer...2/pentagon1.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/7.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mer...entagon-big.gif

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mer...2/pentagon2.jpg

Reuters:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mer...n_crash_map.gif

Two Planes and Secondary Explosions:

QUOTE

4:05:16 PM
"A second aircraft has crashed into the Pentagon building.
It is not known whether this plane was that which was hijacked from Boston airport a short time ago, the fourth such plane to be used in this major attack on the US.
Earlier, a small plane had slammed into the building and set it ablaze." -TCM Breaking News (9/11/01)
archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2001/09/11/story23320.asp

4:17:03 PM
"Part of the Pentagon building outside Washington has collapsed.
It had been hit by two planes apparently hijacked by terrorists in Boston earlier today." -TCM Breaking News (9/11/01)
archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2001/09/11/story23325.asp

6:40:29 PM
Fighter jets are patrolling the skies above Washington after a jet hijacked by terrorists struck the Pentagon.

An aircraft has crashed on a helicopter landing pad near the Pentagon, and the White House.

The Pentagon has taken a direct hit from an aircraft.
The nerve centre of the US military burst into flames and a portion of one side of the five-sided structure collapsed when the plane struck.

Secondary explosions were reported in the aftermath of the attack and great billows of smoke drifted skyward towards the Potomac River. Authorities immediately began deploying troops, including a regiment of light infantry.

General Richard Myers, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, says that prior to the crash into the Pentagon, military officials had been notified that another hijacked plane had been heading from the New York area to Washington.
He says he assumed that hijacked plane was the one that hit the Pentagon, though he could not be sure." -TCM Breaking News (9/11/01)

archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2001/09/11/story23360.asp

Here we have what appears to be an Evacuation of Reagan National Airport at 9:30, 8 minutes before the supposed impact. And 9 minutes before the arrival of N644AW. Courtesy of Woody at Team8plus.org

QUOTE

Evacuation of Reagan Airport at *9:30 am*

It seems that people were thrown out of Reagan Airport a few minutes before the Pentagon crash, at about 9:30, but it doesn't look like a controlled evacuation. Take a look at these statements from people on Reagan airport:

Lindsey Kriete, 24, of Wellesley was scheduled to leave Reagan National on a 10 a.m. flight to Boston. About 9:30 a.m., all hell broke loose, Kriete said, as airport personnel began running through the terminal, telling passengers to leave quickly. By the time Kriete had rounded up her belongings and tried to calm people who were crying, all the taxis were gone and the subway had shut down.

http://tinyurl.com/8zv3o

Another...

The phone rang. It was my sister, on her cell phone from Reagan National Airport in D.C. She was within minutes of boarding a plane to Atlanta when U.S. airspace was shut downand she was talking very fast:
"They're telling us to forget our bags and get out of the terminal!" she said. And then, as she got outside, she began to lose her composure. "I hear something that sounds like explosions . . . I'm afraid!"

It later became clear that the sounds she was hearing were actually coming from the Pentagon, which is near Reagan National.

http://www.uga.edu/gm/1201/FrontEdit.html

With these two statements, it's possible to determine the time of the begin of the "evacuation" quite exactly; Lindsey Kriete says "about 9:30", had not boarded her 10 am flight yet, and the second witness hears the Pentagon explosions while hurrying outside. This points to a time shortly before the crash, between 9:25 and 9:35. It might well be that Kriete is on the point with her 9:30.

But what was the airport evacuated for? Was it "Flight 77" approaching Washington? Did they expect the plane crashing into the terminal? There are far more interesting targets for terrorists in Washington. But the White House was NOT evacuated, the Pentagon was NOT evacuated, Rumsfeld still doing his phone calls.

So why was the airport evacuated? And why this hurry?

Here's a third source, by the way:

Resident Gene Dohrman knows firsthand the reasons behind the proverbial barbed wire that has been wrapped around the nation's airports. On Sept.11, 2001, his flight was taxiing on Reagan National Airport. As the plane returned to the gate, passengers were told that the airport was being evacuated. A Dohrman and other passengers hurried from the gate area through the terminal, they watched the day's surreal news unfold on television monitors. Soon, the entire airport, only a couple of miles from the Pentagon, was empty.

http://tinyurl.com/a7lgu

Team8plus, FOIA Radar:

QUOTE

"CMH = Columbus Airport. It's located (precisely) at the north of the point where the transponder of AA77 is switched off and it disappears":

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/5120/chm16gu.jpg

"At roughly 8:56 the plane appears to stop in south Ohio:"

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2927/chm29iq.gif

"At 9:07 it suddenly reappears further along its flight path then then stops again, apparently moving west":

http://img311.imageshack.us/img311/2200/chm30lw.gif

"At 9:25 the plane reappears again this time on the border between Indiana and Illinois":

http://www.team8plus.org/the-movement/radar/images/77_3.gif

"At *9:43* (after the official crash into the Pentagon) Flight 77 is flying over south Illinois and is nowhere near the Pentagon.) The last few blips after that seem to be fairly random, but ultimately the plane seems to get as far as Kansas.

http://www.team8plus.org/the-movement/radar/images/77_4.gif[/img]

The strange thing is the BTS records show Flight 77 as not taking off. Much like Flight 11. And unlike Flight's 93 and 175.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b338/mer...aa77tail5nc.jpg

So what was flying under Flight 77's transponder code? :blink:

We'll get into more of the witnesses and locations as we go on.

That would be the most logical step.

Merc

Posted: May 17 2006, 09:20 PM

Veterano

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QUOTE

One day last week, Lapic ventured to Arlington National Cemetery to interview a groundskeeper who watched in horror as the plane crashed into the Pentagon.

The worker, William Middleton Sr., was running his street sweeper through the cemetery when he heard a harsh whistling sound overhead. Middleton looked up and spotted a commercial jet whose pilot seemed to be fighting with his own craft.

Middleton said the plane was no higher than the tops of telephone poles as it lurched toward the Pentagon. The jet accelerated in the final few hundred yards before it tore into the building.

"My sweeper has three wheels. I almost tipped it over as I watched, " Middleton said.

In those first minutes, he thought he had seen a plane in trouble, not a terrorist attack.

Middleton and his co-workers at Arlington continued to work Sept. 11 as Washington offices closed and buildings emptied. The cemetery crew had no choice. Funerals were scheduled and burials had to be completed, chaos and all.

As Middleton labored, he could see the destruction less than a mile away at the Pentagon, where the U.S. military mobilized for war.

Another Arlington worker who declined to be interviewed in front of the media told a story that the military historians had not heard in the 244 interviews they had conducted through last week. The man said a mysterious second plane was circling the area when the first one attacked the Pentagon.

http://www.s-t.com/daily/12-01/12-20-01/a02wn018.htm

So here is an account that places it over the Arlington National cemetery. Not over the 395/Columbia Pike/Navy Annex.

And the C-130 was circling "when" the attack occured. Before?

Merc

Posted: May 17 2006, 09:25 PM

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QUOTE

Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head.

"It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane," Mr Campo said. "I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0...,550486,00.html

He also supposed to be an Arlington National Cemetery gardner. Over Arlington National Cemetery.

Merc

Posted: May 17 2006, 09:26 PM

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QUOTE

Steve Patterson, who lives in Pentagon City, said it appeared to him that a commuter jet swooped over Arlington National Cemetery and headed for the Pentagon "at a frightening rate... just slicing into that building."

He claims a "commuter jet". This is the same person who said it held "8-12" people. But he has it coming over Arlington Cemetery. What is going on?

QUOTE

"I was right underneath the plane, " said Kirk Milburn, a construction supervisor for Atlantis Co., who was on the Arlington National Cemetery exit of Interstate 395 when he said he saw the plane heading for the Pentagon. "I heard a plane. I saw it. I saw debris flying. I guess it was hitting light poles, " said Milburn. "It was like a WHOOOSH whoosh, then there was fire and smoke, then I heard a second explosion."

Underneath the plane at the 395 exit for Arlington Natl Cemetery. 395 is on the OTHER SIDE of the Navy Annex. "guessed it was hitting light poles"...fire and smoke and then a secondary explosion. Interesting.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/metro...p01/attack.html

Merc

Posted: May 17 2006, 09:28 PM

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QUOTE

Anon, from the Navy Annex.

As I stood there, I instinctively ducked at the extremely loud roar and whine of a jet engine spooling up. Immediately, the large silver cylinder of an aircraft appeared in my window, coming over my right shoulder as I faced the Westside of the Pentagon directly towards the heliport. The aircraft, looking to be either a 757 or Airbus, seemed to come directly over the annex, as if it had been following Columbia Pike - an Arlington road leading to Pentagon. The aircraft was moving fast, at what I could only be estimate as between 250 to 300 knots. All in all, I probably only had the aircraft in my field of view for approximately 3 seconds.

The aircraft was at a sharp downward angle of attack, on a direct course for the Pentagon. It was "clean", in as much as, there were no flaps applied and no apparent landing gear deployed. He was slightly left wing down as he appeared in my line of sight, as if he'd just "jinked" to avoid something. As he crossed Route 110 he appeared to level his wings, making a slight right wing slow adjustment as he impacted low on the Westside of the building to the right of the helo, tower and fire vehicle around corridor 5.
http://www.ournetfamily.com/WarOnTerror/em...gonwitness.html

http://www.criticalthrash.com/terror/identification.html

This account is too detailed. Sounds like a military person with plane knowledge wrote it.

Where was this person? Perhaps at the Navy Annex outside? Gas Station? What did they really see? Or was some of this deduced after the fact?

-Came over his right shoulder?

-Faced the Westside of the Pentagon directly towards the heliport

-Over the Navy Annex Columbia Pike (alongside 395). Not over Arlington Nat'l Cemetery.

-But why does he say 110? That's the highway on the other side of the Pentagon. Next to the Potomoc.

If he had ducked and was facing the Westside of the Pentagon, how does he/she know the plane came from over the Navy Annex/Columbia Pike.

And how can they make all this out with having a fast moving jet in their field of view for 3 seconds?

Merc

Posted: May 17 2006, 09:29 PM

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QUOTE

Donald "Tim" Timmerman, a 36 year old resident of Eppington Drive, to the south of the Pentagon across Interstate 395, is a navy pilot and a photographer.
"I was looking out the window; I live on the 16th floor, overlooking the Pentagon, in a corner apartment, so I have quite a panorama. And being next to National Airport, I hear jets all the time, but this jet engine was way too loud. I looked out to the southwest, and it came right down 395, right over Colombia Pike, and as it went by the Sheraton Hotel, the pilot added power to the engines. I heard it pull up a little bit more, and then I lost it behind a building. And then it came out, and I saw it hit right in front of -- it didn't appear to crash into the building; most of the energy was dissipated in hitting the ground, but I saw the nose break up, I saw the wings fly forward, and then the conflagration engulfed everything in flames. It was horrible.

-Colombia Pike/395.

-Lost it behind a building.

-"it didn't appear to crash into the building".

-"hit the ground"-didn't happen.

What did he really see?

Merc

Posted: May 17 2006, 09:30 PM

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QUOTE

Renzi, Rick
[Was driving by the Pentagon on the overpass] ". . . less than 300 yards from the impact site at the Pentagon "
Dead link: http://www.rickrenziforcongress.com/rick_on_issues.php
"The plane came in at an incredibly steep angle with incredibly high speed . . ." was driving by the Pentagon at the time of the crash about 9:40 a.m. The impact created a huge yellow and orange fireball, he added. Renzi, who was interviewed at the scene by FBI agents, said he stopped his car to watch and saw another plane following and turn off after the first craft's impact.
Dead link: http://www.coxnews.com/washingtonbureau/st...R-PENTAGON.html
"creaming in at a dive bombing angle"
Dead link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1590000/vide...17_biles_vi.ram =============================================

"The plane came in at an incredibly steep angle with incredibly high speed"...""creaming in at a dive bombing angle"

Does that sound like the same plane?

Merc

Posted: May 17 2006, 09:33 PM

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QUOTE

I live in Arlington, Virginia, less than one mile from the Pentagon. On September 11th...But as the sound of the plane grew louder and louder, I thought to myself- that plane is in trouble.
I jumped up from my chair as the screeching and whining of the engine got even louder and I looked out the window to the West just in time to see the belly of that aircraft and the tail section fly directly over my house at treetop height...I started to run toward my front door but the plane was going so fast at this point that it only took 4 or 5 seconds before I heard a tremendously loud crash and books on my shelves started tumbling to the floor.

--Linda Plaisted

Treetop level?

I thought it was a couple hundred feet at a "dive bomb"/ "steep" angle?

QUOTE

Robbins, James S.

I was standing, looking out my large office window, which faces west and from six stories up has a commanding view of the Potomac and the Virginia heights. . . . The Pentagon is about a mile and half distant in the center of the tableau. I was looking directly at it when the aircraft struck. The sight of the 757 diving in at an unrecoverable angle is frozen in my memory, but at the time, I did not immediately comprehend what I was witnessing. There was a silvery flash, an explosion, and a dark, mushroom shaped cloud rose over the building. I froze, gaping for a second until the sound of the detonation, a sharp pop at that distance, shook me out of it.

James Robbin's btw, is National Security Analyst for a very pro-war publication called National Review

But I thought it was treetop level?

DJLegacy2k1	Posted: May 17 2006, 09:36 PM
DJ Legacy aka The Truth Group: Banned Posts: 3,445 Member No.: 769 Joined: 24-March 06	http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_F...?showtopic=3895 Check this out about secondary explosions and use of second plane if you havent already.

Merc

Posted: May 17 2006, 09:38 PM

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QUOTE

Lagasse, William

Sgt. William Lagasse, a Pentagon police dog handler, the son of an aviation instructor, was filling up his patrol car at a gas station near the Pentagon when he noticed a jet fly in low.

Initially, he thought the plane was about to drop on top of him -- it was that close. Lagasse knew something was wrong. The 757's flaps were not deployed and the landing gear was retracted.

By Avis Thomas-Lester, Washington Post Staff Writer, November 8th

Dead link: http://206.181.245.163/ebird/e20011108vivid.htm

"I saw the aircraft above my head about 80 feet above the ground, 400 miles an hour. The reason, I have some experience as a pilot and I looked at the plane. Didn't see any landing gear. Didn't see any flaps down. I realized it wasn't going to land. . . . It was close enough that I could see the windows and the blinds had been pulled down. I read American Airlines on it. . . . I got on the radio and broadcast. I said a plane is, is heading toward the heliport side of the building."

ABC Nightline - 9/11/02 Transcript (Lexis Nexis)

(mirror) http://www2.hawaii.edu/~julianr/lexisnexis/lagasse1.txt

[...]

"The barracks k gas station is were the press set up after the attack, approx 500-600m west-south west of the pentagon. The aircraft struck the poles in question, they were not blown down, the aircraft passed almost directly over the naval annex splitting the distance between the ANC and Columbia pike. and was approx 100-150ft agl when it passed over the annex and continued on a shallow-fast decent and literally hit the building were it met the ground. There was no steep bank, but a shallow bank with a heavy uncoordinated left rudder turn causing a severe yaw into the building with the starboard side of the cockpit actually hitting at about the same time the wing was involved with the trailer, Because of the Doppler effect no one could have heard the plane if they were on rt 27 until it was already in the building, identifying its position and trajectory from that angle
would have been difficult if not impossible...it was not over Arlington
National Cemetery but closer to Columbia pike itself, there is a small grove
of trees that would have shielded anyone on 27 from seeing the aircraft
until it was literally on top of them...again not much time to make the
assessment. I identified it as American Airlines almost as soon as I saw
it and radioed that it had struck the building. I was on the Starboard (right) side
of the aircraft. There was very little wake turbulence that I can recall,
which was surprising to me." .

He was the guy at the gas station.

-In one instance he says that he was on the starboard(right engine) which makes it *impossible* to have flew down columbia pike.

-Now he says it was above him. 80 feet. An yet he can see the window blinds are pulled down.

-How is he able to get on the radio and let them know where the plane is heading? When couldn't see it. And by the time he clicked the button to talk. It would have already hit the Pentagon.

Also, the pump(#2) on the outside of the Citgo is a Compressed Natural Gas/Bio-Diesel pump! I would assume if he was refueling his 'patrol car', he couldn't be doing it there. Wouldn't he be under the overhang, making it impossible to see what he claims he saw. Is that his white patrol car in pictures?

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Merc

Posted: May 18 2006, 01:44 PM

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QUOTE

Someone writes:

Reagan airport is SO close to the Pentagon, you could probably lob an RPG round from the edge of the property and come close to the Pentagon. It's not unusual at all to see low flying planes around there.

Response from unknown anonymous witness on online forum:

socrfan2
Registered User
Member

True, but anyone who's been here six months also knows the approach path planes take and where you never will see planes. Much of Washington is restricted airspace, and the planes going in and out of National basically fly up or down the Potomac. Otherwise, the only planes you see are military helicopters or traffic helicopters.

Literally thousands of people saw this plane; it flew right up I-395, almost at right angles to the flight path to go into National. I saw it (about 5-6 miles from the Pentagon) and instantly knew something was fishy. Anyone else who saw it similarly would have known it was "off" -- wrong place, too low, flying too slow, etc.

I know literally dozens of people who saw the plane, and I've never made a concerted effort to find people, just been in conversations when the subject came up: people in offices that look out over the Pentagon or the flight path, people who were on 395 or another nearby street at the time, even one schoolteacher whose kids were out on the playground right near the Pentagon. Believe me, if there hadn't been a plane, there would be thousands of people who would know they should have seen one.

http://www.otwa.com/community/showthread.php?t=14756&page;=2

Another "flew up 395". "flying low" and "slow" '5-6 miles' from the Pentagon.

Note he didn't mention the plane crashing or seeing the impact. That's the thing. A LOT of people saw a plane, the plane, some kind of plane. This guy was 5-6 miles away. So who knows what he saw. There were all kinds of people who saw different types of planes, differents colors. Including white, like the C-130. Remember, that side of the Pentagon is sourrounded by tree lines and hills, so it may be possible there were 2 and 3 planes or crafts involved in this and some people didn't see it. And he's also got it flying low and slow. That sounds like a large airliner that is about to make a brief appearance and then land at Reagan National.

Merc

Posted: May 18 2006, 02:29 PM

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QUOTE (DJLegacy2k1 @ May 17 2006, 09:36 PM)

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_F...?showtopic=3895

Check this out about secondary explosions and use of second plane if you havent already.

Yeah I saw that, very good stuff.

Check this one out:

QUOTE

As we evacuated the building, we headed south toward a local mall about 500 yards from where we had exited. As we arrived at the mall, we heard “boom-boom-boom” coming from the Pentagon. There were screams when we heard the booms. People were crying. Everyone was afraid. No one knew what was going on.

We found out later that those booms were portions of the building collapsing. Amazingly, the side of the Pentagon that had been hit by AA Flight 77 remained standing approximately 30 minutes after the initial impact.

http://www.indiana.edu/~speaweb/newsletter...l05/secure.html

Merc

Posted: May 18 2006, 02:32 PM

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Parking in the South Parking Lot:

QUOTE

• Captain Lincoln Liebner, was parking his car at the moment of attack:
'I saw this large American Airlines passenger jet coming in fast and low,' said Army Captain Lincoln Liebner.
'We got one guy out of the fire truck cab', he said, adding he could hear people crying inside the wreckage.

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/mnt/html/.../wtcnews15.html

"I saw this large American Airlines passenger jet coming in fast and low,"
"My first thought was I've never seen one that high. Before it hit I realised what was happening,
Captain Liebner says the aircraft struck a helicopter on the helipad, setting fire to a fire truck.
We got one guy out of the cab," he said, adding he could hear people crying inside the wreckage.
Captain Liebner, who had cuts on his hands from the debris, says he has been parking his car in the car park when the crash occurred.""
http://abc.net.au/news/2001/09/item20010911230953_1.htm

"I heard the plane first," he said. "I thought it was a flyover Arlington cemetery." From his vantage point, Maj. Leibner looked up and saw the plane come in. "I was about 100 yards away," he said. "You could see through the windows of the aircraft. I saw it hit."

--Lincoln Leibner Army Major

Liebner is all over the place.

-As far as I know there is no account of the fireman having to be rescued from the cab. Russell did point out the damage to the cab. But all accounts are that one had dived under the van.

-It came in fast and low, but he had never seen one that high?

-We all know it didn't strike a helicopter on the helipad, because there was no helicopter on the helipad.

Merc

Posted: May 18 2006, 02:43 PM

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QUOTE

Dennis Smith, a building inspector and former Marine, was smoking a cigarette in the center courtyard when he heard the roar of engines and looked up in time to see the tail of a plane seconds before it exploded into the building.

http://www.govexec.com/features/1001/1001spec1.htm

How in the world is this possible?

Merc

Posted: May 18 2006, 02:51 PM

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QUOTE

"I saw what looked to be maybe a 20-passenger corporate jet, no markings on the side, coming in at a shallow angle like it was landing right into the side of the Pentagon."

--Unidentified man 9/11/01 NBC News

QUOTE

"I watched this - it looked like a commuter plane, two-engined come down from the south real low proceed right on and crash right into the Pentagon. I watched it come in very low over the trees and it just dipped down and came down right over 395 right into the Pentagon."

--Don Wright looking out 12th floor windows at 1600 Wilson Blvd. in Rosslyn, VA

A commuter plane.

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?searc...ate=VA&zipcode;=

Don is only a few blocks from 1000 and 1100 Wilson Blvd. Which is the exact locations of the two silver towers that house USA Today/Gannet, where witnesses claimed to have seen the "757" from.

Strange, he see's a commuter plane, and yet the USA Today employees see a 757.

Merc

Posted: May 18 2006, 04:22 PM

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QUOTE

I left home at 8:15 a.m. on Sept. 11 to begin what is normally a 35-minute commute. But traffic was unusually thick that day. As I inched my way toward Washington, I considered taking an alternate route — one that would not take me past the Pentagon. But for some reason, I decided to drive my usual way in.

At 9 a.m., sports-talk radio began reporting the attacks on World Trade Center. I switched over to the all-news station for more information as traffic continued to crawl.

At 9:35 a.m., I pulled alongside the Pentagon. With traffic at a standstill, my eyes wandered around the road, looking for the cause of the traffic jam. Then I looked up to my left and saw an American Airlines jet flying right at me. The jet roared over my head, clearing my car by about 25 feet. The tail of the plane clipped the overhanging exit sign above me as it headed straight at the Pentagon.

The windows were dark on American Airlines Flight 77 as it streaked toward its target, only 50 yards away.

--Vin Narayanan

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/0...irst-person.htm

Oh boy another one of those USA Today employees.

This is an interesting account. For multiple reasons. Again mentions the "traffic jam" as unsual. I will be getting into more of that as time goes on.

But he places the plane about 25 feet above his car on Rt 27. He is under the overhead sign. This could only be the overhead sign by the VDOT camera mass. Near pole one and two.

HOW CAN THE TAIL HIT THE OVERHEAD SIGN *AND* THE POLES, *BUT* MISS THE VDOT CAMERA MASS WHICH IS EVEN TALLER?!?!?

He also makes no mention of the 2 light poles and the one that supposedly hit Lloyd England's cab who would have been directly across from him and the other light poles to his right.

(Posted Image)

(Posted Image)

This places the plane in the wrong spot entirely, makes it impossible to have hit light pole 2.

(Posted Image)

Johnny	Posted: May 18 2006, 10:48 PM
Unregistered	Im sorry but I dont know where to begin. What are you incinuating. that would make it easier on me. which of the 100 stories are you choosing to take as gospel and whcih are lies. God forbid that you use all evidence to support your claim. Sorry, thats was uncalled for, yet expected. I need to say that when people say "a plane flew over", that doesnt mean directly over. Whenever I have said that, it means i made visual confirmation of the plane. In reality, though, when saying it, the plane could be miles to any direction. the sky is a pretty big place bud. Next, i think you are saying there are two planes correct? How can the truth movement go from no planes to multiple planes? wtf? That aside, hearing two explosions means nothing. you can be staring right at the building, stading in front of the hole a plane just made, and heard explosions. Actually, the more people report this the more likely it wasnt two planes, as no one saw a second plane. And how can you say the media spins everything, but use them as the only ones who seem to think that two planes hit? Furthermore, i am assuming the pentagon had electricity. Isnt it possible some elctronic equipement was blowing up in the heat? SImilar things happened at the wtc. And finally, could not some of the witnesses judegment be skewed for the reason that they just say a plane hit the building? people panic, people get scared. my cousin saw the firs plane hit the wtc, but couldnt even focus enough to call 911. Couldnt people saying a plane "disappeared" like magic just been a reaction of shock?

DJLegacy2k1

Posted: May 18 2006, 11:02 PM

DJ Legacy aka The Truth

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They did mean directly over Johnny:

QUOTE

Her brother, [Keith Wheelhouse], of Virginia Beach, spotted the planes first. The second plane looked similar to a C-130 transport plane, he said. He believes it flew directly above the American Airlines jet, as if to prevent two planes from appearing on radar while at the same time guiding the jet toward the Pentagon.
http://indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=131871

Johnny	Posted: May 19 2006, 12:02 AM
Unregistered	I was under the impression that the plane flying over Arlington would not make sense, as I think you said. Was that witness the one in Arlington? It counds like they're talking about a chopper flying directly above a plane.

Merc

Posted: May 19 2006, 01:26 PM

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QUOTE (Johnny @ May 18 2006, 10:48 PM)

Im sorry but I dont know where to begin.

What are you incinuating. that would make it easier on me. which of the 100 stories are you choosing to take as gospel and whcih are lies. God forbid that you use all evidence to support your claim.

Sorry, thats was uncalled for, yet expected.

I need to say that when people say "a plane flew over", that doesnt mean directly over. Whenever I have said that, it means i made visual confirmation of the plane. In reality, though, when saying it, the plane could be miles to any direction. the sky is a pretty big place bud.

Next, i think you are saying there are two planes correct? How can the truth movement go from no planes to multiple planes? wtf?

That aside, hearing two explosions means nothing. you can be staring right at the building, stading in front of the hole a plane just made, and heard explosions. Actually, the more people report this the more likely it wasnt two planes, as no one saw a second plane. And how can you say the media spins everything, but use them as the only ones who seem to think that two planes hit?

Furthermore, i am assuming the pentagon had electricity. Isnt it possible some elctronic equipement was blowing up in the heat? SImilar things happened at the wtc.

And finally, could not some of the witnesses judegment be skewed for the reason that they just say a plane hit the building? people panic, people get scared. my cousin saw the firs plane hit the wtc, but couldnt even focus enough to call 911. Couldnt people saying a plane "disappeared" like magic just been a reaction of shock?

Maybe you are missing something Johnny.

A 757 did not hit the Pentagon. It does not fit, the damage does not reflect a 757 crashing into a stone facade building 500+ mph.

From that point forward, all that is left to do is figure out what really happened. Who saw what. Who is telling the truth.

I don't know what happened, Johnny. But I know a 757 didn't hit the Pentagon.

So I have to work from there.

Could people have seen a 757. Sure maybe. That's why the flyover decoy plane makes sense.

Did people see more than one plane. Yes.

Did people see a large airliner? The claim is yes.

Did people see or hear something else? Yes, they did.

There are serious irregularities in witness locations and accounts. Serious contradictions as well.

This indicates something is up.

Could some of the witness accounts and witness names be fabricated. Absolutely.

Could some of the witness accounts and witness names be genuine. Assuredly, some are.

The key is trying to figure out who is telling the truth. And who is not.

Were two planes involved? Apparently so.

Was one a 757 and one a small military craft? Maybe not.

Was there reports of two planes crashing into the Pentagon. Yes there was.

Maybe you support your comments by ttrying to actually take my posts individualy and disect them. It seems you haven't processed the info very well.

Merc

Posted: May 19 2006, 01:28 PM

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QUOTE (DJLegacy2k1 @ May 18 2006, 11:02 PM)

They did mean directly over Johnny:

QUOTE

And when they said 'over'. It meant over their head as far where they were standing when the plane passed over.

Merc

Posted: May 19 2006, 01:33 PM

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QUOTE

''Out of my peripheral vision, I saw this plane coming in and it was low - and getting lower. ''If you couldn't touch it from standing on the highway, you could by standing on your car.'' ''I thought, 'This isn't really happening. That is a big plane.' Then I saw the faces of some of the passengers on board,'' Cissell said. ''I remember thinking, 'The World Trade Center was just the beginning, there's going to be more.' '' He remembers the helipad the plane flew over before smacking into the Pentagon was close enough to him that ''I could have thrown a baseball at it and hit it.'' While he remembers seeing the crash, Cissell remembers none of the sounds. ''It came in in a perfectly straight line,'' he said. ''It didn't slow down. I want to say it accelerated. It just shot straight in.''

--James R. Cissell 9/12/01 [A] listening to his car radio and the news of the planes slamming into the World Trade Center while sitting in traffic on Interstate 110 by the Pentagon

The witness who was at two places at the same time: James R. Cissell
By Woody B...

For those who are not familiar with the Pentagon area, a short explanation:

The Pentagon is surrounded by three highways: Interstate 395 in the South, Route 110 (=Jefferson Davis Highway) in the East, and Route 27 (=Washington Boulevard) in the Northwest. Look at the map below (in the next post.)

Route 27 was the only highway crossed by Flight 77 in its last seconds - according to the official story.

Now take a look at these astonishing statements of James R. Cissell

First he says, he was on Route 110:

He usually cuts through the Pentagon parking lot to get to work, but was stuck on Interstate 110 because of extra security at the Pentagon following the attack on the World Trade Center.

''Out of my peripheral vision,'' Cissell said, ''I saw this plane coming in and it was low - and getting lower.

''If you couldn't touch it from standing on the highway, you could by standing on your car.''

http://www.cincypost.com/attack/cissel091201.html

Two days later, he was on Route 27:

Sitting in his car on Washington Boulevard next to the Pentagon Tuesday morning, Jim R. Cissell saw the plane coming a couple of hundred yards to his left.

The Clifton native watched it cross over the road, then plow into the side of the Pentagon.

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2001/09/14/loc_tristat...

Where have you been, Mr. Cissell?

Merc

Posted: May 19 2006, 01:36 PM

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QUOTE

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As we were driving into town on 395, there was an exit. We were trying to get off of the exit for the Memorial Bridge. On the left-hand side, there was a commercial plane coming in, and was coming in too fast and the too low, and the next thing we saw was a go-down below the side of the road, and we just saw the fire that came up after that.

...

ENSOR: Was there a sound as well.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We -- that I can't verify, because the windows were up in the vehicle.

...

ENSOR: So you believe it was a commercial airliner that was hitting the Pentagon?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, and I'm not sure exactly where the Pentagon, where it was in relationship top where the plane went down. You know, but it was relatively close to one another. Whether it hit any of the Pentagon, I am not sure.

...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was coming on less than a 45 degree angle, and coming down towards the side of the -- of 395. And when it came down, it just missed 395 and went down below us, and then you saw the boom -- the fire come up from it.

... No, I did not see what kind of an airline.

...

ENSOR: What did you think was happening?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know that that hit the ground and exploded.

--"Barbara" 9/11/01 [C] tried to take the Memorial Bridge exit from I-395

"Barbara", was the wife of a friend of CNN correspondent David Ensor.
By: Woody Box

(Posted Image)

You see the little dot near the Potomac bridge marked "10c"? This is exit "Memorial Bridge" of Interstate 395, and this is where Barbara was sitting in her car, looking towards downtown Washington.

So if a Boeing 757 crashed into the west side of the Pentagon, how the hell could she see that? Did she have eyes in her backhead? Don't tell me she saw it in the car mirror.

And what the hell did she see going down "below the side of the road"?

Her description is perfect if a plane crashed into the Pentagon Lagoon, the little Potomac branch east of the Pentagon. But it doesn't fit at all to a plane crash at the Pentagon's west side. I think she has neither eyes in her backhead, nor an X-ray view.

Maybe that's why she said:

"Yes, and I'm not sure exactly where the Pentagon, where it was in relationship to where the plane went down but they are relatively close to one another. ... whether it hit any part of that pentagon, I'm not sure."

Did Barbara witness a plane crashing into the Pentagon Lagoon?

(Posted Image)

Merc

Posted: May 19 2006, 02:06 PM

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9:37 a.m.: Witnesses See Military Cargo Plane Near Flight 77; Pilot Implies He’s Far Away
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity....=1521846767-202

QUOTE

A C-130 transport plane that has been sent to follow Flight 77 is trailing only a short distance behind the plane as it crashes. This curious C-130, originally bound for Minnesota, is the same C-130 that will be 17 miles from Flight 93 when it later crashes into the Pennsylvania countryside. [Star-Tribune (Minneapolis), 10/11/2002; Pittsburgh Channel, 10/15/2001] A number of people see this plane fly remarkably close to Flight 77:

I submit that the C-130 was called in or added to the mix to confuse people.

-We have it "circling the area when the first one attacked the Pentagon".

-We have it "chasing the first [pass] over at a slightly different angle."

-We have it "not nearby" and conflicting with what other witnesses saw

Kelly Knowles may be the one of the more honest accounts...

QUOTE

Kelly Knowles says that seconds after seeing Flight 77 pass, she sees a "second plane that seemed to be chasing the first [pass] over at a slightly different angle." [Daily Press (Newport News), 10/15/2001]...

Kelly Knowles, a First Colonial High School alumnus who now lives in an apartment a few miles from the Pentagon, said some sort of plane followed the doomed American Airlines jet toward the Pentagon, then veered away after the explosion.

"Thank God somebody else saw that. There was most definitely a second plane," Knowles said. "It's so frustrating because nobody knows about the second plane, or if they do they're hiding it for some reason."

QUOTE

Keith Wheelhouse says the second plane was a C-130; two other witnesses aren’t certain. [Daily Press (Newport News), 10/15/2001] Wheelhouse “believes it flew directly above the American Airlines jet, as if to prevent two planes from appearing on radar, while at the same time guiding the jet toward the Pentagon.” As Flight 77 descends toward the Pentagon, the second plane veers off west. [Daily Press (Newport News), 10/14/2001]

Now Kieth and sister's accounts may actually be the damage control. I am suspicious of his account because he identifies the plane for us and implies a direct conspiracy to his account which is later quelled when the "pilot" comes forward and then there is a follow -up interview with Kieth where he accepts it...

QUOTE

"So I wasn't losing my mind," he said.

In the days immediately following the Sept. 11 hijackings, the Pentagon had no knowledge of the C-130's encounter, because all reports were classified by the Air National Guard, the Pentagon spokesman said.

"It was very hard to get any information out," McClellan said.

Wheelhouse said the Pentagon explanation of the cargo plane's role that day makes sense. The pilot of the C-130 was unable to prevent the attack, he said.

"He's in a transport plane, you watch a jumbo jet flying low, drop its nose and gun it," Wheelhouse said. "What's he going to do?"

QUOTE

USA Today reporter Vin Narayanan, who saw the Pentagon explosion, says, “I hopped out of my car after the jet exploded, nearly oblivious to a second jet hovering in the skies.” [USA Today, 10/17/2001]

Vin had the interesting tail/exit sign encounter. He reports the plane "hovering".

QUOTE

USA Today Editor Joel Sucherman sees a second plane but gives few details. [eWeek, 10/13/2001] Brian Kennedy, press secretary for a congressman, and others also see a second plane. [Sacramento Bee, 10/15/2001]

A second plane. Well what if the second plane people saw was the plane that did the flyover? Again, all you have to do is mix in people's accounts of the C-130 flying over 'later' right after the impact and there you can explain away 'two planes'.

QUOTE

An unnamed worker at Arlington National Cemetery “said a mysterious second plane was circling the area when the first one attacked the Pentagon.” [Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 1/20/2002]

I already mentioned this one. Again it was "circling" when it attacked.

QUOTE

John O’Keefe is driving a car when he sees the Pentagon crash. “The first thing I did was pull over onto the shoulder, and when I got out of the car I saw another plane flying over my head. ... Then the plane—it looked like a C-130 cargo plane—started turning away from the Pentagon, it did a complete turnaround.” [New York Law Journal, 10/12/2001]

Could be the genuine C-130.

QUOTE

The pilot of the C-130, Lieutenant Colonel Steve O’Brien, is later interviewed, but his account differs from the on-the-ground eyewitnesses. He claims that just before the explosion, “With all of the East Coast haze, I had a hard time picking him out,” implying he is not nearby. He also says that just after the explosion, “I could see the outline of the Pentagon,” again implying he is not nearby. He then asks “the controller whether [I] should set up a low orbit around the building,” but he is told “to get out of the area as quickly as possible.” “I took the plane once through the plume of smoke and thought if this was a terrorist attack, it probably wasn’t a good idea to be flying through that plume.” [Star-Tribune (Minneapolis), 10/11/2002]

Hmm sounds like here is the main discrepency, this guy makes it seem as if he is far away. Again this lends to the fact that they may be trying to meld the C-130 and "X-77" together.

jenabell	Posted: May 19 2006, 03:19 PM
Veteran Group: Members Posts: 2,674 Member No.: 530 Joined: 10-March 06	Merc What do you think of the possibility of these "C-130" type planes being the control aircraft? Is it just coincidence they are spotted for F-93 and F-77. There is also a plane trailing the plane that hit the WTC caught on film. Why would there be a plane trailing each of these attacks?

Merc

Posted: May 19 2006, 04:30 PM

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QUOTE (jenabell @ May 19 2006, 03:19 PM)

Merc

What do you think of the possibility of these "C-130" type planes being the control aircraft? Is it just coincidence they are spotted for F-93 and F-77. There is also a plane trailing the plane that hit the WTC caught on film. Why would there be a plane trailing each of these attacks?

Jenabell,

They can control these crafts from the ground via satellite hook-up.

I would guess that the C-130 was for confusion or just dumb luck.

But don't forget there was a "small white jet" at Shanksville:

QUOTE

2 planes had no part in crash of Flight 93
Business jet, military cargo plane were in area of hijacked United Flight 93

Two other airplanes were flying near the hijacked United Airlines jet when it crashed in Somerset County, but neither had anything to do with the airliner's fate, the FBI said yesterday.

In fact, one of the planes, a Fairchild Falcon 20 business jet, was directed to the crash site to help rescuers. The request for the jet to fly low and obtain the coordinates for the crash explains reports by people in the vicinity who said a white or silver jet flew by moments after the crash.

A C-130 military cargo plane was also within 25 miles of the passenger jet when it crashed, FBI spokesman Bill Crowley said yesterday, but was not diverted.

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/2001...erjetnat5p5.asp

(Posted Image)

But they had a different plane:

QUOTE

1) Susan Mcelwain: There's no way I imagined this plane - it was so low it was virtually on top of me. It was white with no markings but it was definitely military, it just had that look.

"It had two rear engines, a big fin on the back like a spoiler on the back of a car and with two upright fins at the side. I haven't found one like it on the internet. It definitely wasn't one of those executive jets. The FBI came and talked to me and said there was no plane around.

"Then they changed their story and tried to say it was a plane taking pictures of the crash 3,000ft up.

"But I saw it and it was there before the crash and it was 40 feet above my head. They did not want my story - nobody here did."

THE MIRROR REPORTED:

The FBI's later explanation for the white jet was that a passing civilian Fairchild Falcon 20 jet was asked to descend from 34,000ft to 5,000ft some minutes after the crash to give co-ordinates for the site. The plane and pilot have never been produced or identified. Susan Mcelwain says a Falcon 20 was not the plane she saw.

The FBI insists there was no military plane in the area but at 9.22am a sonic boom - caused by a supersonic jet - was picked up by an earthquake monitor in southern Pennsylvania, 60 miles away from Shanksville.

2) Lee Purbaugh: There was another plane," Lee said. "I didn't get a good look but it was white and it circled the area about twice and then it flew off over the horizon."

3) Tom Spinelli: "I saw the white plane," "It was flying around all over the place like it was looking for something. I saw it before and after the crash."

4) Dennis Decker, 5) Rick Chaney: About a mile north on Buckstown Road, Dennis Decker and Rick Chaney were at work making wooden pallets when they heard an explosion and came running outside to watch a large mushroom cloud spreading over the ridge." As soon as we looked up, we saw a midsized jet flying low and fast," Decker said. "It appeared to make a loop or part of a circle, and then it turned fast and headed out. " Decker and Chaney described the plane as a Lear-jet type, with engines mounted near the tail and painted white with no identifying markings. "If you were here to see it, you'd have no doubt," Decker said. "It was a jet plane, and it had to be flying real close when that 757 went down. If I was the FBI, I'd find out who was driving that plane. "

6) Robin Doppstadt: Robin Doppstadt was working inside her family food-and-supply store when she heard the crash. When she went outside, she said, she saw a small white jet that looked like it was making a single circle over the crash site. "Then it climbed very quickly and took off. "

7) Dale Browning who witnessed the white plane, "the damndest darn thing", remarked:
"Everybody's seen this thing in the sky, but no one can tell us what it is."

8) Jim Brant: Mr. Brant and two of his employees arrived at the site in minutes , hoping to help survivors. He said he noticed a white plane, perhaps a jet, circling the wreckage. "It reminded me of a fighter jet," he said. He said it stayed there for one or two minutes before leaving. "The plane had no markings on it, either civilian or military."

9) John Feegle: "It didn't look like a commercial plane," Feegle said. "It had a real goofy tail on it, like a high tail. It circled around, and it was gone." "The aircraft appeared to have an unusually tall vertical stabilizer."

10)"Shown a photograph of a Fairchild A-10 Thunderbolt II, a low-flying combat aircraft commonly referred to as a “Warthog,” Saylor identified it as the military plane she had seen. She said she recognized the two engines on the rear and the distinctive shape of the cockpit and nose of the plane."

The A-10 Warthog http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/flight_93.html :
(Posted Image)

jenabell	Posted: May 19 2006, 05:21 PM
Veteran Group: Members Posts: 2,674 Member No.: 530 Joined: 10-March 06	I am not saying they didnt have the technology in 2001, but they are just refining that technology now for nats ass flying. At the time UHF los would seem a much safer option for a precise operation like this. edit I do not think the aircraft were c130's, I just think the witnesses were just relaying the first thing that came to mind. A c-130 is a widely known military aircraft, but there are many inbetween that and a fighter jet that the average joe wouldnt be able to recognize at an airshow. This post has been edited by jenabell** on May 19 2006, 05:25 PM

Merc

Posted: May 19 2006, 05:48 PM

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QUOTE (jenabell @ May 19 2006, 05:21 PM)

I am not saying they didnt have the technology in 2001, but they are just refining that technology now for nats ass flying.

At the time UHF los would seem a much safer option for a precise operation like this.

edit** I do not think the aircraft were c130's, I just think the witnesses were just relaying the first thing that came to mind. A c-130 is a widely known military aircraft, but there are many inbetween that and a fighter jet that the average joe wouldnt be able to recognize at an airshow.

Oh no Jenabell.

You misunderstood.

The C-130 WAS SEEN at the Pentagon and st Shanksville it appeared along with the Warthog.

As far as the towers, yes there is video of a craft I believe as the second plane crashes. Could be the Warthog.

Or could it be a helicopter? Anybody have footage of the myterious plane?

(Posted Image)

jenabell

Posted: May 19 2006, 06:00 PM

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QUOTE (Merc the Jerk @ May 19 2006, 10:48 AM)

QUOTE (jenabell @ May 19 2006, 05:21 PM)

Oh no Jenabell.

You misunderstood.

The C-130 WAS SEEN at the Pentagon and Shanksville...along with the Warthog.

As far as the towers, yes there is video of a craft I believe as the second plane crashes. Could be the Warthog.
Or could it be a helicopter? Anybody have footage of the myterious plane?

(Posted Image)

There is good video of it. I will have to search for it later. It enters into the picture aprox 15 seconds after impact banking away from the towers.

JackD	Posted: May 19 2006, 06:16 PM
Unregistered	Throw this into the mix -- also in the air in the region that day were E-7s (or E-4?) a 707 variant, i think, communications planes participating in Operation Global Guardian. Also: helicopters and planes off the USS Kennedy and Washington, apparently based off of Norfolk, VA -- somewhere on E. seaboard. A very odd helicopter theory links the WTC even with these carriers. Unknown if carriers were participating in any of the 4 or 5 war game drills happening on 9/11. easy place to hide the good, though -- lots of take-offs and landings.

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