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Did the passengers of AA 11 embark the wrong plane in Boston?

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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 01:35 AM
Original message
Did the passengers of AA 11 embark the wrong plane in Boston?

Since 9/12/01 we are told that the passengers of AA 11 were waiting at gate 26 and boarding the plane there.

Now look at this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/16/national/16TEXT-FLIGHT11.html?ex=1071378000&en=4b6d66a63bf99b3a&ei=5070

///// 7:45:48 -- Ground Control 1: American eleven heavy boston ground gate thirty two you're going to wait for a Saab to go by then push back. /////

Gate 32???

The distance between gate 26 and gate 32 is about 1000 ft.

Any comments?
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. Just a coincidence
I'm sure - it always is, huh?
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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
2. curious
Good find. I suggest you look more into it. What about the gates for the other flights? More references to the gates for this flight? Is it a simple typo or routine gate change, or what?
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Hi Paul.
I really can't comment on this post, but I wonder if you've been able to research any of the maintenence records for the 4 planes. I'd be interested if any of the planes had unusual or extended maintence shortly before 9/11...have you looked into this angle at all?
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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. No clue
Too much stuff to research! Seems everything related to 9/11 has weird oddities associated with it. It's like the Mystery Spot in Santa Cruz, CA. ;)
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. re: curious
///Good find.///

Thanks, Paul. I'm honoured.

///I suggest you look more into it.///

Done that already.

/// What about the gates for the other flights? ///

The information on the other flights is much thinner. Flight 175 was starting at gate C-19, but there is no transcript (why not? Why doesn't this transcript include the ground phase of flight 175?)

///More references to the gates for this flight? Is it a simple typo or routine gate change, or what?///

I think we can exclude typos (alphabetically written numbers!) as well as acoustic faux pas (twenty-six=thirty-two?). We should also exclude an incompetent ground controller talking to another plane than he's looking at. And we can be sure that the ground controller is confirming the pilot's request for pushing back (maybe "AA 11 gate 32 would like to push back" or something like that), this being cut off at the beginning.

So I think we should take gate 32 for real.









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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 05:14 AM
Response to Original message
5. Can you verify?
Since 9/12/01 we are told that the passengers of AA 11 were waiting at gate 26 and boarding the plane there

this is true?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. 2 seconds of research
Typing "Flight 11" and "Gate 32" into Google, I got one hit back:

http://www.free-market.net/forums/main0108/messages/464978365.html

(Boston Globe) American Airlines Flight 11 left at 7:59 a.m., on time for a nonstop flight to Los Angeles, according to a Massport official. There were no reports that anything unusual happened in or around the jet, which Massport officials believe was highjacked by terrorists, prior to takeoff at 7:45 a.m. One airport employee, who asked not to be identified, said the American flight left on time from Gate 32 in Terminal B, and that nothing unusual was apparent. The employee said airline workers learned almost simultaneously that there had been explosions at the World Trade Center and that air traffic control had lost contact with the American flight.

---

It appears to be an excerpt from the Boston Globe. I'll have to dig up the whole article later. So it would seem to not be a simple matter of a typo, but there are two gates being referred to.

By the way, I like the tone of that excerpt. "Absolutely nothing unusual to see here. Repeat: nothing unusual! Now move along." ;)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Harry, I love you too.
BTW, it is not uncommon to ask for a link when posting some information?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
9. A list of accounts
Edited on Tue Jan-13-04 12:22 PM by LARED
I did a Lexis Nexis search on Flight 11 gate 32, and Flight 11 Gate 26.

Here are the results.

Other than sloppy journalism I have no way to explain this. I will say that the ATC's at Boston most likley know where the planes depart from.

Flight 11 , Gate 32

The Boston Globe September 11, 2001, Tuesday ,SECOND EDITION

One airport employee, who asked not to be identified, said the American flight left on time from Gate 32 in Terminal B, and that nothing unusual was apparent. The employee said airline workers learned almost simultaneously that there had been explosions at the World Trade Center and that air traffic control had lost contact with the American flight.

Patriot Ledger (Quincy, MA) September 11, 2002 Wednesday South Edition

At 7:40 a.m. today, about 200 American Airlines employees gathered at Gate 32 at Logan Airport, the point of departure for Flight 11 exactly one year before. They observed the anniversary with a memorial service for the crew and passengers aboard the hijacked flight, which crashed into the World Trade Center in New York at 8:46.

Boston Herald September 12, 2002 Thursday ALL EDITIONS

The day of remembrance started at Terminal B with a private service for about 200 American Airlines employees. They gathered to honor their lost colleagues at Gate 32, where Flight 11 began its doomed trip last year.


Flight 11 , Gate 26

Boston Globe September 12, 2001, Wednesday ,THIRD EDITION

The American flight left from Gate 26 in Terminal B, and the United flight from Gate 19 in Terminal C. One airport employee said nothing unusual was apparent when the American flight left, and airline workers learned almost simultaneously that there had been explosions at the World Trade Center and that air traffic control had lost contact with the American flight.

The Boston Globe September 12, 2001, Wednesday ,THIRD EDITION

American Airlines Flight 11, a Boeing 767, took off from Gate 26 in Terminal B at 7:59 a.m., carrying 92 passengers and crew members. That jet is believed to have been hijacked and flown into the World Trade Center shortly before 9 a.m.

The Boston Globe September 16, 2001, Sunday ,THIRD EDITION

John Ogonowski parked his pickup truck in the employee parking lot at Logan and made the familiar stroll through Terminal B, past the Anthony's Pier 4 Lobster booth, the newsstands and the souvenir shops. He walked toward Gate 26, where the plane that would be designated Flight 11 had been waiting for him since the night before. It was a Boeing 767, the widebodied workhorse of the American fleet, heavy with more than enough fuel for the 2,611-mile flight.

The Boston Globe November 23, 2001, Friday ,THIRD EDITION

The captain was John Ogonowski, a 52-year-old man from Dracut. His first officer was Thomas McGuinness, 42, of Portsmouth, N.H. Also aboard were nine flight attendants and 81 passengers, for a total of 92 people on the flight manifest when the plane pushed back from Gate 26 at Logan International Airport

The Boston Globe September 12, 2002, Thursday ,THIRD EDITION

Sylvio Amorino, just off a flight yesterday morning, simply stood there in front of Gate 26, Terminal B, Logan Airport. It was 7:55 a.m. The 70-year-old realized that, one year ago, American Airlines Flight 11 had idled here.
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Gate 32 seems to be
the earlier version.

Which gate would usually be used?

I'd guess that 32 was the usual departure gate, therefore a careless presumption while 26 was the actual one.

Now guess who will to try tell us that it did not depart from any gate.

;)
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Interesting


At 7:40 a.m. today, about 200 American Airlines employees gathered at Gate 32 at Logan Airport, the point of departure for Flight 11 exactly one year before. They observed the anniversary with a memorial service for the crew and passengers aboard the hijacked flight, which crashed into the World Trade Center in New York at 8:46.

Thank you, I didn't know this article. So we have 200 witnesses for gate 32 and an unknown number of witnesses for gate 26.

So the AA employees were holding this memorial service at gate 32 while other people were mourning at gate 26? (See Harry's link). Am I right? A little bit odd, isn't it?


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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Re
So we have 200 witnesses for gate 32 and an unknown number of witnesses for gate 26.

Well according to the article there was one traveler pausing at gate 26. Why do you call any of these people witnesses?

So the AA employees were holding this memorial service at gate 32 while other people were mourning at gate 26? (See Harry's link).

I not sure one traveler pausing at gate 26 constitutes a memorial service.

If I had to guess the AA employees know what gate flt 11 pushed off from. And seeing as both gates are listed in the newspapers within a day of 9/11 I think it's safe to assume we have a standard case of sloppy journalism.
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Were the gates re designated
at some point?

If gate 32 had been gate 26 at some previous time (or vise versa) the confusion would then begin to make some sense.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. Perhaps
Edited on Thu Jan-15-04 07:59 PM by DulceDecorum
October 23, 2002
Transportation Security Administration Federal Security Director George Naccara has advised Massport that TSA will federalize its ninth checkpoint at Logan International Airport on Thursday, October 24, 2002 when they staff the
Delta Airlines and Continental gates 25-36 in Terminal C.

Other checkpoints federalized over the past several months include:
United gates 11-21,
Delta and Midwest Express gates 40-41 and 42 in Terminal C.
American gates B4 and B5,
America West gates 37-38,
American Eagle gates 22-25 in Terminal B,
AirTran gates 1D, 1E and 1C in Terminal D and
Northwest gates 1A and 1B in Terminal E.
http://www.massport.com/about/press02/press_news_tsa3.html
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
12. Codeshare
East/West air dilemma: What’s the Pacific’s contribution to international air travel development? Amazing! Ignoramus! The world’s first codeshare flight was operated by Air Pacific and Qantas in 1980. That bombshell of a morsel was dropped by Air Pacific’s chief executive John Campbell, in a talk about why it’s easy for travellers to fly north-south, or south-north in the Pacific, but a trifle harder to fly east-west or west-east. You’re not quite sure what a codeshare is? Well, every airline’s codesharing nowadays so as to keep in business. It’s when you board an aeroplane brandishing, say an American Airlines ticket and find the plane is run by, say, Air Iraq, and it’s not a hijack.
http://www.pacificislands.cc/pm32003/pmdefault.php?urlarticleid=0026

I have said it before and I will say it again.
ALL the September 11 hijacked flights were CODESHARE.
The three of them that are linked to Qantas,
(which took over Air New Zealand almost immediately after September 11)
smashed into buildings.
The Air Canada codeshare, crashed into a field.


American Airlines Flight 11 Boston (BOS) to Los Angeles (LAX) 92 passengers and crew aboard. Crashed into the south tower of the World Trade Center.
United Flight 175, a single aircraft, Boston(BOS) to Los Angeles (LAX) 65 passengers and crew aboard. Crashed into the north tower of the World Trade Center. Both buildings subsequently collapsed.
American Airlines, Flight 77, Washington, D.C. (IAD) to Los Angeles (LAX) 64 passengers and crew aboard. Crashed into the Pentagon.
United Airlines, Flight 93 Newark (EWR) to San Francisco (SFO) United Flight 93, a single aircraft, 45 passengers and crew aboard. Crashed near Johnstown, Pennsylvania, 80 miles southeast of Pittsburgh.

Qantas and Air New Zealand have confirmed that the flights used in the wave of terrorist attacks in the US overnight were involved with code-share arrangements with the local carriers.
Qantas said that it believed six US residents were flying as Qantas codeshare on American Airlines Flight 77 from Washington Dulles to Los Angeles which was deliberately crashed into the US defence headquarters, the Pentagon, just before midnight AEST.
Qantas said, that one of its US-based staff members was travelling on company business aboard American Airlines Flight 11 from Boston to Los Angeles, which crashed into the World Trade Centre (WTC) in New York. No passengers or crew are believed to have survived either crash.
... In a statement released this morning Air NZ said United Airlines flight UA175 from Boston to Los Angeles, which is believed to have crashed into the WTC, was a code-share flight with Air New Zealand operating as NZ9051.
"Initial investigations have revealed that Air New Zealand has no record of any of our ticketed passengers being onboard this flight," the company said.
12 September 2001
http://www.travelbiz.com.au/articles/96/0c007296.asp

More at:
http://911review.org/Sept11Wiki/Quantas-CodeSharing.shtml
http://news.airwise.com/stories/2002/11/1037021360.html

In other news:

American Airlines is proud to offer regional airline service to select North American destinations via its AmericanConnection program. Three independent contractors, Chautauqua Airlines, Corporate Airlines, and Trans States Airlines operate flights under the AmericanConnection brand utilizing modern Regional Jet and Turboprop aircraft.
Customers traveling on AmericanConnection will be offered the same amenities offered to customers traveling on American Airlines. These include the following (where available or applicable):
Electronic Ticketing
Prereserved seats
Self Service Check-In
Curbside Check-In
http://www.aa.com/

Now this all is MOST interesting.
According to records, it appears that American Airlines Flight 77 was not scheduled to fly on September 11, 2001.
Wherdy go?
According to records, it also appears that WITHIN the US, an American Airlines flight might NOT actually BE an American Airlines flight.
According to the good work we have just been made aware of, it appears that passengers for American Airlines Flight 11 boarded ANOTHER plane.

An AA domestic flight might actually be a Chautauqua Airlines flight:

A wholly owned subsidiary of Republic Airways Holdings, Inc., Chautauqua Airlines offers scheduled passenger service on approximately 355 flights daily to 42 cities in 18 states and Canada through codesharing agreements with four major U.S. airlines. All of the airline's flights are operated as either AmericanConnection, America West Express, Delta Connection or US Airways Express. The airline employs more than 1,400 aviation professionals.
http://www.rolls-royce.com/latestnews/showPR.jsp?PR_ID=1284
Republic Airways Holdings, based in Indianapolis, Indiana is an airline holding company owned by investment funds organized and managed by Wexford Capital LLC, a Greenwich, Connecticut-based investment advisor. Republic currently owns two regional airline subsidiaries: Chautauqua Airlines, based in Indianapolis, Indiana and Republic Airlines, based in Louisville, Kentucky.
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0EIN/2003_May_19/101966982/p1/article.jhtml
Republic, which recently learned that American Airlines will remove the AA* code from some of its flights to meet ASM restrictions in its mainline pilot contract, said it plans to use the proceeds to expand operations, buy more airplanes and pay off debt it owes to its only current stockholder, WexAir LLC. Its Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) registration statement did not indicate how much of a stake, if any, WexAir plans to retain.
http://www.ainonline.com/issues/04_02/04_02_timeseemsripepg48.html

An AA domestic flight might actually be a Corporate Airlines flight:
http://www.corporateairlines.com/routes.html
http://www.corporateairlines.com/news.html

Mind you there appear to be TWO SEPERATE ENTITIES operating under the nem Corporate Airlines Inc.
In this era of international commerce, global leaders need to fly farther in comfort, be productive en route, and reach business destinations relaxed and refreshed. Corporate Airlines
Incorporated is a company specializing in executive air travel.
CAI WAS FOUNDED IN 2003 by Nick Dufour who is the current President and CEO.
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~ndufour/HTML/About.html
According to his resume,
Nick Dufour graduated from Bow High School in 2002
and is currently majoring in Business Administration/ Information Technology at the University of New Hampshire.
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~ndufour/HTML/AboutND.html
We are NOT talking about that one.

An AA domestic flight might actually be a Trans States Airlines flight:
http://www.transstates.net/

Air transportation between midwestern and northeastern states is the job of Trans States Airlines. The company offers more than 300 daily flights to nearly 40 cities. In the Midwest it operates as AmericanConnection through an agreement with AMR's American Airlines. Trans States also operates as US Airways Express in the Northeast through an agreement with US Airways. Its fleet consists of 12 regional jets and 33 turboprop aircraft.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ic/107/107170.html

Trans States Airlines, like most of the regional carriers in the country, utilizes code-sharing agreements. Trans States Airlines code-share agreements are marketing agreements without ownership by major airlines. Trans States has code-share agreements with American Airlines and US Airways.
WITH ITS CODE-SHARE AGREEMENTS, Trans States Airlines IS RECOGNIZED IN MAJOR AIRLINES' COMPUTER RESERVATIONS SYSTEMS AS PART OF THE THE MAJOR AIRLINES' SYSTEM. THIS PERMITS Trans States Airlines TO USE THE MAJOR AIRLINES' RESERVATIONS SYSTEMS AND THE TWO-LETTER CODE OF THE MAJOR AIRLINE THAT IDENTIFIES FLIGHTS AND FARES IN THE WORLDWIDE COMPUTER RESERVATION SYSTEM.
Trans States USES THE MAJOR AIRLINE'S LOGOS, SERVICE MARKS, AIRCRAFT PAINT SCHEMES, AND EMPLOYEE UNIFORMS, and Trans States and the major airlines coordinate flight schedules to make the most convenient connections between the airlines. Trans States also benefits from the major partners' advertising campaigns and frequent flyer programs. Trans States maintains its aircraft, manages most of the airports' stations in each city, and staffs the personnel at its operations.
Code-sharing is advantageous to smaller communities which cannot support service from the major jet carriers. Trans States feeds its passengers to the major airlines by transporting passengers from the "spokes", (smaller communities served by Trans States Airlines) to the major airlines' hub. When flying on Trans States Airlines, passengers receive the benefits offered by the major airlines, for example senior discounts and mileage credits in the major airlines' frequent flyer programs. The benefits accrued can be used on the major airlines or on Trans States Airlines. In addition, passengers receive low through-fares when traveling from the spoke city and connecting to the major airline at the hub city.
http://www.transstates.net/info.htm

When one throws the OneWorld Alliance into the mix, any passenger could have come from anywhere.

APPLICATION by Chautauqua Airlines, Inc. carrying on business as US Airways Express, Trans World Express, TW Express and American Connection (hereinafter Chautauqua) on behalf of itself and AMERICA WEST AIRLINES,INC. for an approval......
http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/rulings-decisions/decisions/2002/A/45-A-2002_e.html

APPLICATION by Chautauqua Airlines, Inc. carrying on business as US Airways Express, Trans World Express, TW Express and American Connection (hereinafter Chautauqua Airlines), on behalf of itself and AMERICAN AIRLINES, INC. (hereinafter American Airlines), for an approval .....
http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/rulings-decisions/decisions/2001/A/625-A-2001_e.html

APPLICATION by Chautauqua Airlines, Inc. carrying on business as USAir Express or US Airways Limited (hereinafter Chautauqua), on behalf of itself and TWA AIRLINES LLC (hereinafter TWA), for an approval ....
http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/rulings-decisions/decisions/2001/A/175-A-2001_e.html

APPLICATION by Trans States Airlines, Inc. carrying on business as American Connection and US Airways Express (hereinafter Trans States), on behalf of itself and Chautauqua Airlines, Inc. carrying on business as US Airways Express, American West Express and American Connection (hereinafter Chautauqua), for an approval ....
http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/rulings-decisions/decisions/2002/A/516-A-2002_e.html

Then, on top of all that,
AMR (the parent company of American Airlines)
indulges in something known as REVERSE CODESHARE.
Go figure.

Meanwhile, back at the White House:
GEORGE W. BUSH CONCERNED ABOUT AIRLINE STRIFE
Feb 6, 2001

United States President George W. Bush said today that he is worried about the possibility that strikes could hit the country's four biggest airlines at about the same time in the next few months.
"I am worried about strikes at the airlines. I think that could have a harmful effect on our economy," Mr. Bush said.
"I would urge that the parties settle their disputes. And the President's got some opportunities, some opportunities available, and I will explore all options."
The nation's four biggest carriers - United Airlines, Northwest Airlines, American Airlines and Delta Air Lines - all have contracts expiring with parts of their workforces in the near future.
Northwest mechanics could walk off the job as soon as March and Delta pilots could go on strike in April.
http://news.airwise.com/airlines/archive/2001/american2001.html

I do hope he was speaking of picket line strikes
and not the September 11 kind.
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Stupid distractions.
"An AA domestic flight might actually be a Chautauqua Airlines flight"

So what? :spank:

Flight 11 flew to Los Angeles.

Chautauqua Airlines does not fly to California.

http://www.flychautauqua.com/Destinations.asp

An AA domestic flight might actually be a Corporate Airlines flight:

So what? :spank:

Flight 11 flew to Los Angeles.

Corporate Airlines do not fly to California.

http://www.corporateairlines.com/routes.html


An AA domestic flight might actually be a Trans States Airlines flight:

So what? :spank:

Flight 11 flew to Los Angeles.

Trans States do not fly to California.

http://www.transstates.net/route_map.htm

:eyes:


The BTS database shows only two airlines apart from AA to have flown from Boston to LA on 9/11/01, United and Delta.





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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. RH
has taken the trouble to point out that
Chautauqua Airlines does not fly to California.
Corporate Airlines do not fly to California.
Trans States do not fly to California.

RH has also answered a long standing question on this forum.
Flight 11 flew to Los Angeles.
And all this time some of you thought that it parked itself into one of the Twin Towers!!!!
:eyes:
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Flight 11 flew to Los Angeles every day
weekdays and weekends.

:eyes:

To the best of my knowledge it had been scheduled to do so every day up until Monday 10/11/01, since Jan 1st 1995, the very first day recorded in the BTS online database.

If then for some peculiar reason it was suddenly not scheduled to do so on September 11th 2001, what then should that peculiar reason be, and why then would nobody have noticed such a remarkably extraordinary peculiarity?

:shrug:
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
39. The fact that it was scheduled to fly
does not neccesarily mean that it ACTUALLY DID SO.

I am certain that there are SCORES of times when that flight - and others were cancelled for many and various reasons.

The BTS site tells whether a flight ACTUALLY DEPARTED, and gives the time of said departure.
You may not hold these statistics in high regard but such information is very useful in determining where a plane may actually be.

What makes this flight more interesting is the fact that it was code-share.
What happened to the passengers from the other airlines who were booked on that flight?

We haven't heard any major squeaking from the other code-share partners and
THEY are the ones who would be liable to be sued
since the tickets were sold by THEM
and had THEIR name
and THEIR flight numbers
and THEIR guarantees.
That US Congress money probably does NOT cover the code-share partners, since they are internationals who are headquartered OUTSIDE the good ole US of A. Besides, we haven't heard of foreign airlines getting US cash handouts - or did I miss that?

A person flying from Dallas to Taipei tonight, for instance,
would depart on American Flight 691 and transfer in San Francisco to
American Flight 6123. At least that's what the ticket would say. But
American Flight 6123, which leaves shortly after midnight, is really China Airlines Flight 3.
http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Safety_Issues/others/code.html
See what I mean?
Who do you think the American families would go after if that flight went down?

ALL the September 11 flights were international code-share,
so once again I have to ask,
wherdy go?
Only this time I am referring to the code-share passengers.
And most especially, THE COMPLAINTS from their family members.

Yo Air Canada - Flight AC4085 (UA93) is missing.
Do you care?
Yo Air New Zealand - Flight NZ9051 (UA175) is gone.
What, no tears?
Yo Qantas - you cold-hearted sod!
Does it not bother you TWO of your code-share planes crashed on September 11?
Or that SIX of your ticketed passengers died on AA77
AS WELL AS at least one of your employees?
http://www.travelbiz.com.au/articles/96/0c007296.asp

Not one damn peep out of you!
Too busy dancing on Ansett's grave?
http://www.orientaviation.com/pages/back_issues/01_10/OA_V9N1_airlines_said.html

Thursday, 16 August, 2001
Qantas profits slump
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1493939.stm

Rachel Mealey: While airlines around the world are reeling, Qantas has proven that the demise of its main competitor Ansett was enough to compensate for the aviation downturn since September 11. Declaring a net profit of $428 million, the airline also announced it would fund a fleet upgrade with an $800 million capital raising from existing shareholders. Institutional investors showed their support with $600 million being raised so far.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/busrpt/stories/s660908.htm

At the same time as going on a plane buying spending spree Qantas management are asking staff to take a wage freeze.....
No one can quite understand why Qantas needs a pay cut from us when Qantas is the only airline making a profit and buying planes.
At yesterday’s Annual General Meeting (AGM), Chairman Margaret Jackson said Qantas expects to make the same profit next year as this year, i.e. $597.1 million before tax – some market analysts actually think the profit will be 20% higher than this year!
http://www.asuairlines.asn.au/Q95.htm

Oct 29, 2001
Oneworld alliance partners Qantas and American Airlines are to form a new strategic partnership in which the Australian carrier is to buy up to 75 Boeing 737 aircraft, currently on order for American.
The deal will allow Qantas to increase capacity in its home market and bring some relief to AA, which has experienced severe financial difficulties since the attacks on the World Trade Center last month.
http://news.airwise.com/stories/2001/10/1004355352.html

The lack of capacity required that the airplanes be delivered within an unusually short timeframe. Airbus was marketing airplanes and delivery slots held by United Airlines (UA), which was then in a particularly difficult financial position was not willing to take some of its deliveries. The airplane flown to Australia was in UA colors. Boeing had a large number of 737NGs for which American Airlines (AA), Continental (CO) and Delta (DL) were willing to delay the delivery dates.
http://airtransportbiz.free.fr/Fleets/QF738.html

Fat lot you care about your passengers, Qantas.
Fat lot you care about your employees.
Fat lot you care for ANYTHING from Down Under.

We know that airlines get paid very hefty sums
whenever a ticketholder dies in transit
and we don't need to ask what you did with that money,
but what did you do to make those family members shut up?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. Oh dear, did I miscount?
I wrote "Five of them were positively identified ..."

Then I was going to change it to "All but one of the six of them were positively identified ..." but only half completed the job before clicking off.

And then, I dare say, somebody would seize the opportunity to pop up to accuse me of being a paid disinformation agent.

:nopity:

C'est la vie. So there you have it. Airline flights are indeed often routes shared cooperatively with fellow airlines. The fact is well established, never at all disputed, as far as I can see. There had never at least been any doubt in my mind about it; more than once we've booked cheap tickets with Finnair codes from subsidiary agents only then to end up on British Airways flights with the said tickets.

So please remind us then. Is there supposed to be something especially significant about the fact?

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Rule Number Two
Treat people with respect. Don't be rude or bigoted. Discuss the message, not the messenger.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. The lack of respect is entirely your own.

I happen to have a legitimate opinion with regard to a subject in question.

If you do not then wish to know it then let that be your loss.





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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-18-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #49
61. You must be
right.

Please don't deny THAT!
:pals:
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #39
48. What happened to the passengers
from the other airlines who were booked...?

The same, of course, as happened to the passengers booked to fly with American Airlines.

Any more stupid distractions to waste our precious time on?

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-18-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #48
57. Life is like a box of chocolates ......
you never know what you're gonna get.

All the planes that were involved in September 11 were US DOMESTIC flights (despite their code-share affiliations)
and were
owned
operated
managed
staffed
and took off from US airports
with US air control
and the FAA
and NORAD
and the US military
and the US intelligence watching the whole thing.

BUT
FOREIGN airlines
have had their insurance rates raised
as a direct result of September 11
and FOREIGN airlines are now required to pay hefty premiums
to US-based insurance companies
and FOREIGN airlines are being pressured to carry armed guards on their flights INTO the nation that had the security breach in the first place.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/airlines/story/0,1371,1117509,00.html

Qantas said before the attacks in the US it was indemnified under its Aviation Liability Policy in respect of war risks for a limit of $US2 billion for any one event.
Aviation insurance underwriters have now issued a seven day Notice of Cancellation of war risks insurance cover to all airlines, effective September 25, 2001 and applying to all international carriers.
"Insurers may provide limited war risk cover to airlines which they consider to be a good risk," Qantas said in a statement.
"Qantas will fall into this category."
Qantas said that this new cover will be restricted to liability for death and injury to passengers on the aircraft limited to $US2 billion per occurrence; and death or injury to third parties and property damage on the ground limited to $US50 million for any one event or in aggregate.
It said a $US1.25 surcharge per passenger per flight will be imposed by the insurers for this cover."This amount will be added to the ticket price as a separate charge," Qantas said.
20 September 2001
http://www.travelbiz.com.au/articles/91/0c007591.asp
Qantas lost SIX ticketed passengers
aboard TWO US-based code-share planes
and yet remains a top notch insurance risk.
However, it does rather appear as if
the code-share relationships of
Qantas and Air Canada
have been noted.

THE United States order for international airlines to have armed police onboard amid growing fears of an al-Qaeda hijack was not directed at Australia, federal Justice Minister Chris Ellison said today.
<snip>
The Government is also considering flying sky marshals to Canada although Qantas had no direct flights between the two countries.
Senator Ellison said he was sympathetic to THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT'S REQUEST FOR ARMED GUARDSON FLIGHTS and would treat it with urgency.
http://www.couriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,8286316%255E1702,00.html
Tue 6 Jan 2004
Qantas to comply with sky marshal order
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/Business/story_54217.asp

Stupid is as stupid does.

Consideration of the total airline insurance premium (of about US$1,785 million gross in 1995 excluding war risks) shows that the relatively modest premium covers enormous exposures, such as nearly US$400 billion of aircraft hull values and the liability exposures from the carriage of passengers. Both can produce huge accumulations. With a per passenger fatality liability cost of US$3 million and hull values of up to US$150 million per wide-body, a single major event could cost several billion or many times the WORLDWIDE annual premium.
http://airlinesgate.free.fr/articles/insurance.htm
41% of the WORLDWIDE fleet of aircraft is located in the USA.

BUT WAIT - THERE'S MORE

In a wire story circulated by the Agence French-Presse (AFP), an insurance expert revealed that companies had slashed by half their estimate of potential payouts to the families of those who perished aboard the flight en route to the Dominican Republic.
"It's horrible to say, but there were many Dominicans on board the plane and their compensation payouts are less than, say, for an American," said the insider who insisted on anonymity.
The change came after learning that more than 90 percent of the passengers -- including five unticketed infants traveling on their parents' laps -- were Dominican nationals or of Dominican descent. "We estimated a payout yesterday (the day of the crash) of about a billion dollars but we lowered our evaluation today (the day after) to about 500 million dollars," the insurance-industry insider explained from Paris. Calculations are based on a number of factors, including the victim's income and family situation.
<snip>
"Traditionally, airlines receive $2.7 million per passenger from their insurance companies within 10 days of a crash," the president of the National Air Disaster Alliance, Gail A. Dunham, told insure.com. American Airlines should hand that money over to the families.
An American Airlines spokesman offered words of comfort to the hundreds of people who gathered Sunday night at a Washington Heights church for a memorial service for many of the victims who lived in my neighborhood. He told those present, "We love you. We love your people. AND NOW MORE THAN EVER WE WILL SERVE YOU."
http://www.progressive.org/pmp0701/pmpln2001.html
More bang for the buck?

Qantas today confirmed the deaths of two Qantas staff members in Tuesday's tragic hijackings in the United States of America.
Laura Lee Morabito, Qantas Area Sales Manager in Boston, was killed in the crash of American Airlines Flight 11, while travelling on company business. Laura, 34, was an American citizen. She joined Qantas in 1988. She lived in Framingham, Massachusetts, with her husband.
Alberto Dominguez, 66, from Lidcombe in Sydney, joined Qantas in 1991 and was a baggage handler at Sydney Domestic Terminal. He was killed while travelling on holiday aboard American Airlines Flight 11. He was married with four children.
http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn/au/publicaffairs/details?ArticleID=2001/sep01/2480
Wonder how much they were worth.....

Drill Sergeant: Gump! What's your sole purpose in this army?
Forrest Gump: To do whatever you tell me, drill sergeant!
Drill Sergeant: God damn it, Gump! You're a god damn genius! This is the most outstanding answer I have ever heard. You must have a goddamn I.Q. of 160. You are goddamn gifted, Private Gump.

Would that DulceDecorum were so......
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.